Topics: Building an App, Customer Journey, Female Founders, Booststrapping
Building an App and the REAL customer journey experience…
Feeling overwhelmed by the idea of building something new for your business?
This episode is for you if you’ve ever thought: “How do I create something my customers will actually use?” Because the truth is, building an app—or any digital tool—takes more than an idea.
This episode breaks down what actually matters when you’re turning an idea into something people will use and love. Because the truth is, the success of your offer—whether it’s an app, a course, or a service—comes down to one thing: how deeply you understand the customer journey.
I’m joined by Camilla De Cesare, founder of HNTR, a beautifully designed app that helps UK homebuyers navigate every stage of buying a home without the overwhelm. What started as a spreadsheet she shared with friends became a full app—built from the ground up.
Together, we talk about what most founders get wrong when they’re building an app, how to actually map the customer journey so users don’t get lost, and why thoughtful design always beats fancy tech.
If you’ve ever wondered how to make your product or service easier to use, this episode will give you action steps and a reality check to help!
In this episode:
- Be Friends with Your Tech: Getting more comfortable with the tech part of your business
- Better Customer Journey: Why mapping the customer journey is so important for your brand
- What Data Should I look at? Understanding data that shows you how to connect deeper
- Founder lessons you don’t see online: Self-funding, working with developers, and keeping your vision steady.
You don’t need to be “techy” to get something out of this one—it’s for every founder who wants to grow smarter…without having to know everything.
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 | Why Understanding Your Customer Journey Changes Everything
04:55 | From Frustration to Founder: Building an App That Solves a Real Problem
08:40 | How to Map the Real Customer Journey (Without Guessing)
12:50 | Tech Meets Empathy: Creating Human-Centered Customer Support
26:15 | Lessons in Bootstrapping, Boundaries, and Building with Purpose
LISTEN TO NEXT: Entrepreneur Mistakes to Avoid
RESOURCES
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MORE ABOUT THIS FEMALE FOUNDERS PODCAST EPISODE
“You only truly understand your customer journey when you watch people use your product, not just when they tell you what they think.” – Camilla de Cesare, founder of HNTR app
Connect with Camilla de Cesare
Website: https://hntrapp.com/
Tiktok: @camilladc
IG: @ave.camilla
- Building an App with Intention: Solve what truly matters
- The Real Customer Journey: Map emotions, not funnels
- Human-Centered Customer Support: Use tech to deepen humanity
- Bootstrapping with Purpose: Grow slow, stay grounded, protect your values
Are You Really Designing for Your Customer?
Have you ever felt like your business—or your app—is out there, but not quite landing with the people you’re trying to help?
You’ve spent weeks refining features, rewriting copy, testing new strategies, and still… something feels off. The message isn’t clicking. The response feels lukewarm. And you can’t quite figure out why.
That tension—the gap between intention and impact—is where so many founders get stuck. It’s that space between what you thought would resonate and how people are actually experiencing your brand.
It’s the invisible friction that slows growth and drains momentum.
And it’s exactly where Camilla De Cesare, founder of HNTR, found herself before she decided to build something different.
Camilla’s story isn’t just about building an app. It’s about rethinking how we build altogether. Because when you design for your customer, not your ego, everything changes.
The Story Behind HNTR: From Frustration to Function
Camilla never set out to be a tech founder. In fact, she was working in fashion and fashion tech when she hit a wall—buying her first home in London.
“It was the most confusing process I’d ever gone through,” she says. “You don’t know who to trust, what to ask, or where to start. It’s the biggest purchase of your life—and it’s a nightmare.”
That frustration became the spark for something new.
Camilla started by doing what most of us do: creating an Excel spreadsheet to stay organized. Then she shared it with friends. They shared it with their friends. And soon, that humble spreadsheet became the foundation for HNTR, a home-buying app that simplifies the entire process for first-time buyers in the UK.
What makes her story stand out isn’t the tech—it’s the intention.
Instead of rushing to scale or chasing investors, she started by mapping the customer journey: what buyers feel, what they fear, and where they get lost.
That simple decision—to understand before building—became her biggest strategic advantage.
Building an App That Actually Works
Most founders get hooked on their idea before they ever understand their audience.
We fall in love with the solution, not the problem.
But as Camilla puts it:
“Feedback isn’t criticism—it’s the blueprint for creating something people can’t live without.”
In the early days of building an app, she did something most of us skip—she watched people use it. Sitting next to them, silent, observing every click, pause, and hesitation.
And what she discovered changed everything.
People weren’t navigating the app the way she expected. They skipped sections, missed features, and got stuck at moments she thought were obvious.
So she went back and reimagined everything.
She swapped her hidden hamburger menu for a bottom navigation bar (just like Instagram or TikTok), added onboarding questions to personalize the flow, and made the user experience effortless.
Small shifts. Massive impact.
Because when you’re building an app, usability isn’t a feature—it’s the foundation. Every unnecessary click costs trust. Every confusing step creates drop-off.
When you make it easy for people to succeed, they’ll stay.
Mapping the Customer Journey (for Real)
Your customer journey already exists—whether you’ve mapped it or not. Every click, scroll, hesitation, and decision tells a story.
But the question is: are they moving through it the way you think they are?
Camilla learned early that assumptions are expensive.
She originally built HNTR around her own logic—starting users with property viewings, because that’s how she started her home-buying process.
But not everyone thinks that way.
Some users wanted to handle budgeting before looking at properties. Others needed education before they even began searching.
By watching users, she realized the customer journey isn’t linear—it’s deeply personal.
That realization transformed HNTR’s entire onboarding flow. Now, users choose their starting point—budgeting, viewing, or planning—and the app adapts accordingly.
That’s empathy-driven design in action.
“When you understand your user’s path,” she says, “you’re not guessing—you’re solving problems before they appear.”
🧠 Pro Tip for Founders:
Whether you’re building an app, writing an email sequence, or designing a course—your “onboarding” matters. It’s the difference between curiosity and commitment.
Customer Support That Connects
AI is everywhere. Automation is everywhere.
But connection? That’s still the rarest thing online.
Camilla’s approach to customer support blends tech with empathy.
Inside HNTR, she created Scout—an AI chat designed to support users emotionally through the most stressful parts of buying a home.
“When people are overwhelmed, they don’t just need information—they need reassurance.”
Scout was trained using Camilla’s tone of voice and real human conversations. It doesn’t try to “fix” everything—it offers calm and emotional grounding when people hit high-stress moments.
That’s the kind of thoughtful innovation that turns users into loyal advocates.
Because people don’t remember what feature you built. They remember how you made them feel while using it.
Support isn’t reactive—it’s part of your product experience.
The Hidden Data That Grows Your Business
When you’re building an app, your metrics only matter if they drive action.
Camilla doesn’t track vanity metrics like downloads or followers. She looks at user flow data: where people pause, how long they spend on certain steps, and what features they ignore.
That data reveals friction points.
When users stall, it signals confusion. When they skip sections, it’s a visibility problem.
Instead of chasing hype, Camilla refines flow—micro-optimizations that improve the customer journey with every release.
For founders, this mindset applies everywhere.
If you’re running a service or course, look at your drop-off points.
Where do people disengage? Which steps confuse them?
Those moments tell you where your communication—or your design—needs clarity.
Growth isn’t about adding more. It’s about removing friction.
The Human Side of Tech
Camilla’s biggest lesson in building an app wasn’t about code—it was about courage.
She spent six months experimenting with no-code tools, teaching herself the basics, and hiring freelancers to explain what she couldn’t figure out.
She didn’t want to become a developer—she wanted to understand enough to lead confidently.
That’s a powerful mindset shift for early-stage founders:
You don’t need to do it all. But you do need to understand enough to delegate wisely.
When you grasp how things work, you protect your budget, your boundaries, and your vision.
That’s how you move from overwhelmed creator to Magnetic Strategist—someone who leads with clarity and focus, not panic and pressure.
Small Shifts, Big Impact for Founders in Their First Three Years
If you’re in your first three years of business, take this episode as your blueprint for sustainable growth.
Here’s what Camilla’s journey teaches:
- Listen relentlessly. Your customers are already telling you what works and what doesn’t. Pay attention to their behavior, not just their words.
- Map every interaction. The customer journey isn’t a sales funnel—it’s an emotional experience.
- Make support part of your product. Guidance, reassurance, and responsiveness are as valuable as new features.
- Stay intentional. Don’t chase trends—build with clarity and consistency.
- Lead with empathy. Whether it’s an app, a course, or a community—your users should feel understood every step of the way.
Because the businesses that last aren’t the ones with flashy launches. They’re the ones that move with purpose, patience, and empathy.
Designing With Care
When you start designing with empathy, everything shifts.
Sales become smoother.
Users stay longer.
Your brand becomes something people trust—not because it’s trendy, but because it feels right.
Your app isn’t just a product. Your content isn’t just marketing.
It’s a reflection of how deeply you understand your people.
So ask yourself:
Are you really designing for your customer—or just for what you think they need?
When you stop guessing and start listening, your business becomes lighter, clearer, and far more human.
That’s where real impact—and long-term success—begin.
FAQS
1. What’s the first step in building an app for my business?
Start with your audience, not your idea. The most successful apps are built from a clear understanding of your customer journey—where people get stuck, what they need next, and how they naturally move through a process. Once you see those gaps, the tech becomes a tool to fill them, not the starting point.
2. How do I know if my app idea is actually needed?
Watch how people behave before you build anything. If they’re hacking together spreadsheets, notes, or Google Docs to solve a problem, that’s a strong signal your solution has value. As Camilla shares, her app started exactly that way—by noticing what people were already doing inefficiently.
3. Do I need to know how to code to build an app?
No. You don’t need to be technical—you need to be strategic. Understanding the basics (how features connect, what “onboarding” means, how data flows) helps you communicate clearly with developers and make better decisions without wasting money.
4. What’s the biggest mistake founders make when building an app?
They build for themselves instead of their users. When you skip user testing or assume your logic matches your customers’, you lose people fast. As this episode shows, small UX shifts—like simplifying navigation—can completely change the experience.
5. How do I map my customer journey effectively?
Start from the first moment someone discovers you and trace every step until they reach their goal. Notice where confusion, hesitation, or overwhelm show up—those are design opportunities. A strong customer journey map turns those friction points into moments of clarity and confidence.
6. How can I make my product more user-friendly?
Simplify everything. Add clarity at each step: fewer options, visible buttons, and smart prompts that help users know what to do next. People shouldn’t have to “figure out” your product—they should feel guided through it.
7. What kind of data should I track to improve the customer journey?
Don’t obsess over vanity metrics—focus on flow. Track where users drop off, how long they stay in each section, and which features they never touch. That data tells you where to fix friction and how to increase engagement with intention.
8. How do I balance educating users without overwhelming them?
Chunk the process. Instead of dumping all your knowledge upfront, break steps into bite-sized, actionable phases that celebrate progress. Progress tracking, micro-wins, and gentle prompts keep people motivated without cognitive overload.
9. How can founders stay motivated while building something complex?
Remember why you started and who you’re building for. There will be frustrating days, but seeing real users benefit—especially when they tell you it changed their experience—refuels your energy. Purpose and feedback are your best antidotes to burnout.
10. What’s one lesson every founder should take from this episode?
Your customer journey is the real product. Whether you’re building an app or a service, everything comes back to how someone experiences what you’ve made. The more empathy you design with, the more sustainable and impactful your growth becomes.
FULL TRANSCRIPT WITH CAMILLA DE CESARE, FOUNDER OF HNTR APP BELOW:
Chardét (00:00)
This is one of the most energizing conversations that you are about to hear. We’re going to be talking about how to be more impactful in the world with your business, your creative pursuits, how to understand your customers and clients better and really serve them. We go into so much of this. We also touch on the idea of creating an app for those of you that are interested. And I’m speaking with such a magnetic person. I think you’re going to find her
so knowledgeable, so helpful, so interesting. Her name is Camila de Cesare. She is the founder of the Hunter app HNTR, which is an incredible resource to help home buyers in the UK really understand the process and not feel so alone. So whether you’re in the UK, you’re looking to buy a home, or you just want to know more about this journey of creating for your people.
This is a conversation you don’t want to miss. And if you think at the end of this, hey, I’d actually like to hear more from Camilla. You can see in the show notes all the links there to do that. And she also has a podcast called From Better, B-E-T-A, to Better. It’s a new show and it’s really interesting talking to early stage founders and checking in with them along their journey. I’ll see you inside.
Welcome to her first three years. From breakdowns to blunders, learn what worked and what didn’t. I’m your host Charday and whether you’re a new entrepreneur or you’re just starting something new, this is your space to learn and feel little less alone.
Camilla de Cesare (01:44)
think what I get the most satisfaction from is if I can help people. And then this time it’s taken the format of the app that I created and the podcast that I’m also trying to start.
Chardét (01:54)
You’re being very humble right now about, I this podcast I tried to start and this app I have. So let’s unhumble it a little bit and talk about what is your journey because you have a really interesting background. And also I love that, again, we’re doing early stages of the app that you created. But if we back up, where did your experience start pre-founder? What were you doing? What are you doing?
Camilla de Cesare (02:18)
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll go back a little bit further. So I know I sound American, but I’m Italian and Austrian, and I grew up moving my whole life. So on average, we moved every three years. ⁓ And then I studied in Canada for university, and then I moved to the UK about eight years ago. And I used to always work in fashion and then in fashion tech. So very different from where I am today. I loved my career. It was great.
It wasn’t necessarily giving me maybe the satisfaction that I wanted in what I was doing, even though I was learning a lot. I still to this day love my colleagues and love what the company’s doing. It just wasn’t exactly maybe what I was like, I see myself doing this forever. And so I bought my house in London. So was lucky enough to be able to go through that process thanks to my job and thanks to everything, like my circumstances. And I hated every second of it. Every single second of the process, I was like, why is it so hard? You don’t.
know who to contact, you don’t know who to trust, you don’t know what’s right, and this is the biggest purchase you’re ever going to make in your life. And so I thought there has to be a better way. And I created this really big Excel sheet that I then gave to all my friends when they started their buying journeys and then they added a bit to it. And they were like, this helped me too. And so then I had this huge Excel doc that I was like, this is helpful, but I forgot about it. I went on with my life. I was doing my career. I renovated my home. And then I, on a whim, decided to go to Athens.
with my now-fiance and we’re looking at flats because they sell these like tiny little flats for very affordable still compared to the rest of Europe and we’re like, should we like get a flat in Athens? And the answer is no, we should not get a flat in Athens. But I came across all the same challenges as when I was going through the home buying process in the UK and I pulled up my spreadsheet again and I thought, you know what, if I’m still experiencing this three years later in another country,
I think there’s scope to make the experience better for people. And that’s when I decided I was going to create an app to try to help other people navigate the home buying process because it’s the biggest purchase any of us ever make. And I want people to feel more supported and less overwhelmed. And then something I’m really proud of is that 10 % of revenue. So not-profit revenue. So from day one, I donate 10 % to Centerpoint, which is a charity supporting youth homelessness. So the idea is if we’re in a position fortunate enough to be able to buy a home, I’d love to
be able to help other people who maybe aren’t quite as lucky.
Chardét (04:41)
I love every bit about this. There’s a lot of stuff to break down. So we’re going to start with the inclination to become a founder first. When did that hit? Because you, the way that you describe it, it sounds like you were loving your job. Everything was working out in that industry. You bought the home and then you started to do this. Had you thought about being a founder before you spotted this need?
Camilla de Cesare (05:06)
Yes. So I’ve actually always loved the idea of building something. tried a few times, like in university, actually, I had this platform where we were reselling clothes and this was really early days, like before all the platforms. I actually almost started a rental platform also right before they all started and then COVID hit. And so I was really glad I didn’t. But the idea on that one was a rental platform for travel.
So you would arrive at the location and you would have like someone else’s wardrobe essentially for your stay. But again, really glad I didn’t start that because the logistics of that. And then when COVID hit, was like, ooh, so glad I didn’t do that one. So I’ve always loved the idea of doing something, but I wasn’t 100 % sure what it should be. And in the meantime, I was learning so much in my career. And so think it came at the right moment that I had this problem. I feel I had learned enough in my job to be able to apply it.
Chardét (05:56)
When you started to decide to do that, because this is the part that I think is always the most interesting, because you’re someone who had a lot of interaction with founders. Some of us, we like, we’ve never had that and it is a shit show once we get in. But for those of us that are like, you’re learning, et cetera. What were the things that were helpful to have seen with them having worked with them for so many years? And then what was kind of a.
prized to you when she started and you just thought, well, I just never could have known this without doing it myself.
Camilla de Cesare (06:26)
Yeah, so I think because I was in fashion tech, there was a product. And with Hunter, it’s a tech product. It’s prop tech. And so the biggest learning for me was really, does that mean to have a product team? How do you build a roadmap? How do you decide what features to launch? And how do you prioritize feedback and which features to launch? Because every user is going to want something different. But how do you aggregate that and understand what’s the highest impact, what’s going to have the highest ROI?
What’s the best user experience? How do you build an onboarding flow? How do you read the data on how people are using an app? So I feel like it was an amazing school. I don’t know, do you say that in English? In Italian you say like squalette. It was an amazing school to learn. Really, what does it mean to have a tech product and how to build it? Not that I learned to code, but how do you manage a team that builds it? And how do you use user feedback to keep iterating? And also, how do you manage budgets in something like that? Because when I started working there, there wasn’t investment then there was.
And I obviously am self-funding, so I don’t have investment. So you need to be really mindful of what you launch when, because you can’t just do everything at once. And so that, I think, is what I learned the most, that I use day in and day out as I’m doing Hunter. And something that’s surprising, I think, because obviously when I was at a company, it already had traction. You start from zero traction. No one knows the product. You don’t have your messaging. You think messaging is going to resonate, and then you’re like, this isn’t.
people aren’t really understanding what I’m trying to say, so then you’re shifting your messaging and then you’re like, okay, that seemed to land well. Which platform is it landing the best on? So it’s quite a niche. So how do you find that niche without spending money and being really bootstrapped but building a community and being authentic?
Chardét (08:08)
Even just half the stuff you described, guarantee most of us are like, no, I didn’t think about that part. it’s already a lot of knowledge. But what was the aspect of it where you mentioned something that really stuck out, think, which is there are certain things that you prioritize first, especially when you’re self-funding. What for you were the things to prioritize first that looking back, you think, okay, that was good. And were there anywhere looking back, you think,
didn’t need to do that, or maybe not ready.
Camilla de Cesare (08:40)
Yeah, so again, How Hunter was really built was based on my home buying journey and how I break down the home buying journey is essentially in like three parts. One, you have the journey where you’re looking for a property. So you’re trying to organize your viewings, understand what questions to ask, compare the properties. Then you have your like kind of budgeting process. So you’re trying to understand what are my finances, at what point do I pay different things? And then you have all the steps involved in actually owning the house. So when I decided to launch Hunter,
I was like, well, let’s think about this logically. The first part I should tackle is the property viewings because that’s the first part in the journey. So I’m going to try to get people really early on. And so I did everything around like customizing your own template with questions and mouse tabs and things like that. And I built in a much less exciting way, if you will, the checklist because I was like, I have time. I’m going to get to that and make that better.
So I agree still with the principle because I narrowed in on a very specific problem first. However, the mistake I made is I dropped everybody in to that experience right away, even though these other parts of the app were still there. And then I very quickly learned different people might want to learn the process before they start the viewings. It’s not because I went straight into the viewings that maybe they don’t want more education. So I had all these features, but people didn’t necessarily realize they were there.
a mistake, but I’m glad that I did it because I learned very quickly that people weren’t navigating the way I thought they were navigating. And so then I built an onboarding flow where now I ask them, how do you want to go about this? And then I drop them into the appropriate part of the app. I don’t regret it. I think you just need to start and you can make so many assumptions. None of them are going to be right. You’re only going to understand once you start to see people use your product.
Chardét (10:24)
This learning is so powerful because it’s almost as if just knowing to do the onboarding flow and the idea of the customer journey, because even someone listening that doesn’t have an app, you’re still going to have to think about that. And the idea that your customer, your client doesn’t necessarily navigate it, as you said, in the same way that you would. I’ve seen that too, where I was doing, for example, like, well, people will…
They will want to be a guest on a podcast first, and then later on they’ll want to start one. But sometimes that journey doesn’t exactly exist that way.
Camilla de Cesare (10:58)
I did the opposite. I was like, I’ve never been a guest. Let me start a podcast.
Chardét (11:05)
Already that’s how it’s something an example, right? And you just don’t know because… And some people, as you said, they just want to know the information. So for example, I’m definitely someone who would go on your app and what comes next before even viewing. I would want to understand because that’s just how my mind works. What are the ways that this will be after I find the place? Because I wouldn’t feel comfortable looking without knowing that.
Camilla de Cesare (11:29)
Yeah, no, you’re much better prepared than me. I’m very 5A, but I’m very much just start and I’ll figure it out. Sometimes I wish I spent a bit more time. It would maybe spare me some mistakes, even when I DIY’d. I was like, I can do it. How hard can it be? And then I was like, it’s hard.
Chardét (11:39)
every
There’s pros and cons to both sides of it for sure. think you can get into analysis paralysis forever. So that’s why I also like the idea that you have the option for people to exit that part of it and just start moving, start looking, doing that part too, I think is important because otherwise you can consume information forever and never do anything with it.
Camilla de Cesare (12:07)
I think also with social media nowadays not to go on a tangent, but there’s a ton of amazing content about founders and a lot of amazing podcasts. And I think everybody should listen and should learn, but you also need to learn when you need to start doing it because consuming tons of content and never acting on it, you feel like you’re doing something because you’re learning, but unless you start putting it into practice, it’s never going to come to fruition. And so I think it’s a balance we all need. We’re like, learn and then try.
Chardét (12:32)
When you look back on the journey of how you started this, cetera, what was the most helpful, I guess, in terms of seeing how people were using the app and their journey? How did you, as you said before, learning what feedback to prioritize? How did you do that? Because I’m sure you have a lot of different people saying a lot of different things.
Camilla de Cesare (12:52)
There’s another really important point that I would make is what someone says and what someone does don’t necessarily always align. And what someone does is a much better indicator than what someone says. So when I first launched Hunter, I was obsessed with trying to get people to use it in front of me without me saying anything. So it was people I knew or it was also people I didn’t know. Like say we were at a lunch with a group of friends and I’d borrow someone who didn’t know me. And I was like, hey, by the way, like I made this app. Would you mind downloading it? It’s free. I just like to see.
what you think and what happens, but I’m not going to tell you how to use it. And I would just watch them. I would watch where they clicked. I would watch if they hesitated. I would watch if they’d moved through something very quickly. And then after I had kind of noted what they did, I would ask them, like, how did that feel? What did you think? And something I noticed very quickly on is I made a really big mistake on my navigation bar when I first launched. So I don’t know how much you know about navigation bars, but there’s different kinds. And I had launched with what it’s called a burger bar.
So it’s the three lines, you click on it, and then you have all the different things. I thought that was intuitive, that was easy. No, it was not. Because if you think about Instagram and TikTok and how people have learned to use apps nowadays, most things are visible at the bottom. Which sounds so obvious, but when you’re building an app for the first time, you’re not really thinking that way, or at least I wasn’t. And I very quickly learned people were missing entire sections of the app because they weren’t navigating to the burger bar. And so very quickly had to relaunch with
the menu bar at the bottom, and now everybody sees all the features, and it’s super easy and intuitive to use. But had I not watched people do it, I wouldn’t have learned that, because people don’t even know they’re missing features. So how would they tell you? And people don’t know it’s called a burger bar, so how would they tell you? So you make a lot of assumptions when you’re building, because you think something makes sense, and then you watch someone, and you’re like, wow, they’ve missed an entire section. But again, what they do is so much more important than what they say.
Chardét (14:46)
cannot agree more with this and it’s such important advice to where if you have an app, you’ve got an online product, this is super intuitive to think about as you did. If you don’t, you don’t really consider it, but it’s still important because people listening even that just everyone should have a website, right? No matter what you do. And to think about how are people using it? How are people going through that journey? What are they stopping at? Asking them. That’s something where I confess I haven’t done a lot of either.
But it’s just really thinking about that because yeah, if they don’t even know that you offer something because they don’t know where to find it, because their mind doesn’t work as yours does, and they can’t tell you that, or they choose not to in a lot of cases, know, a lot of people land on your site and then they never say anything and you have no idea. I love that you observed. How do you do it now? Because I imagine you’re starting to look at the back end of stuff a little bit.
Camilla de Cesare (15:43)
So now we’re starting to integrate a lot more data. And so we’re building like this really big admin dashboard on like how much time on average does each person spend on each part of the journey. And if we see people are getting stuck, adding push notifications to try to prompt. to be like, hey, like, do you want to add another property? Hey, if you found a property, like, did you already get your mortgage broker? Like, check it off on the list. Hey, do you need help with what to offer price wise? Like, we have this tool.
So this is still very much behind the scenes. It’s not nearly as sophisticated as what I want yet, but that’s what we’re doing. So it’s how can we see the user journey and where are they getting stuck in the process? Because it shows us one of two things. Either it’s not intuitive in the app or the process itself of buying a home in the UK, people struggle in a specific stage. And either of those pieces of information are really helpful. Because if it’s the app, I can improve the app. If it’s part of the actual journey, OK, great. How do we provide more support for people?
when they’re in XYZ part of the home buying journey. When I launched the checklist, for example, it was very basic. It just had the steps and a bit of an explanation. And I again had really helpful feedback from someone saying, I still had to use the notes on my phone to put notes about like sub steps or to like set reminders for myself. So what did I launch? It just came out yesterday actually. Now each step has sub steps, has places for you to put notes. When appropriate, there’s places for you to put reminders. So hey, do you wanna follow up with your solicitor in a week’s time?
and then it’ll just send you a little push notification, hey, today’s the day, let’s follow up with your solicitor.
Chardét (17:10)
This is so valuable. I’m just thinking about it because it’s a really overwhelming process in general anyways, but to be able to even get push notifications about something that you didn’t even think you needed to do. And I can see how this can translate for everyone listening. Like what are the extra things you can add in that people might not even realize about what you do or how you help them that could be beneficial so they don’t feel
you know, completely stuck or give up or walk away or go find someone else or something else.
Camilla de Cesare (17:43)
The biggest, I mean, it’s an emotional roller coaster when you’re starting something. There are some days that I’m like, why did I do this to myself? And then there’s other days I’m really excited. But one of the messages that really still sticks with me every day is I got a message from someone who’s neurodivergent. And they said, I didn’t think buying a home was possible because it was so overwhelming. And hunters helped me feel like I can do it. And so I sometimes get like a bit emotional thinking about it.
Chardét (18:07)
And even just the idea of the education around it, even if you’re not in a position to yet do it, I think is such a beautiful service that you’re offering because someone might be the idea of having a home feels impossible, feels so far away based on their circumstances. And it could stay that way if they didn’t have access to information to understand how I could do this maybe in the future.
And that is such an amazing way, like we always say on this show, is there a way that you can empower people even before they become your customers and your clients? That tension of wanting to give more and more features and information, but also keeping it very specific enough that it’s positioned well.
Camilla de Cesare (18:56)
Yes, I think you’re always battling, or at least in my mind, I’m always battling what’s the amount of information you need to make it actionable and not overwhelming. Because I think if you want everything, you can Google how to buy a house, and then you end up with pages and pages. You can ask Chatchebiji. You end up with pages and pages. What I’m really trying to do with Hunter is each step is broken out. You click in. You have checklists. It’s more manageable. There’s a progress bar. It’s like you’re halfway there. Great job. There’s little.
like emojis, you know, that are like celebrating you at like different steps that are some of the hardest. I’ve also integrated now an emotional support chat because one of the most overwhelming processes is once you have your solicitor and if the buyer’s or seller’s in a chain, it’s very complicated in the UK because the chain can fall through and a lot of people, it does fall through and that’s what I saw a lot of my friends were struggling the most. And I’ve seen also on Reddit people talking about how stressed they feel and how
They’re always crying. like, I know. And so I thought, well, why don’t we try to support extra in those stages? So once you’re in the solicitor stage, there’s a section that says, hey, feeling overwhelmed? That’s totally normal. Do you want to chat? It’s an AI feature, obviously, but we’ve trained it to talk how I would talk to my friends.
Chardét (20:11)
Really interesting because you think about there’s certain things that you’re privileged to be able to do like get a home and not everyone you know will be in that position and so it can feel very isolating to not be able to talk to the people you know about it because their thoughts are well you’re already so lucky. I mean this applies to everything right like let’s say you become a parent or you get a new great job like
you feel very isolated. this idea of having a feature to help you with the emotional side and that it’s AI is so interesting. How did you train the AI to think or to speak more as a friend would? Because as I use ChachiBT, I’ve tried it just to test it, the therapy thing, just to see. I’m like, no, not for me. I’m just-
Camilla de Cesare (21:01)
Yes. You essentially get to write your own prompts. So you pick which AI you want to use. let’s say you want to use OpenAI, which is the ones who built ChatGPT. You get to name your AI and you give it different prompts and different rules that it has to follow. So for example, we also were very strict that it doesn’t answer any questions outside of the home buying process. So it’s not here to give any advice outside of that. So it’s very, very focused.
on just that and it has to always take like the most local legislations, the most up-to-date legislations. We give samples of how I respond to things that like I talk to my friends about and it’s like this is a tone of voice you need to use. you really have a lot of flexibility in training it essentially and then you save that and it’s in the back end and it’s always there and if you want to update it you just kind of go in and you update it.
Chardét (21:50)
Do you name it something really familiar like Carla or something or Amy? ⁓
Camilla de Cesare (21:56)
Scout?
Obviously the app and then Scout is the AI. We felt like it was gender neutral enough. It still fits kind of in this whole home buying process, if you will, like a Scout.
Chardét (22:07)
Thinking about this slightly different, because as we’re going into the tech side of it, talking about the AI, cetera, being that your background was, you clearly already understood the UX experience. You already had some understanding of how does someone go in and use something like this because of your work. How did it feel, when you actually went into getting someone to do the coding part? Because that is not your area of expertise.
What was it like sourcing that, finding it, getting it right? I always imagined that being a big thing.
Camilla de Cesare (22:40)
I would say that was a big thing. So in January, 2024, when I decided I was going to do this, I actually used a no code app platform. I used one called Thunkable. This was also before all the AI platforms that exist now. And I spent six months trying to build it myself. Not obviously to the level that it is today, but to teach myself what does it mean to build features? What are the different API integrations I need? What is the data storage? I know this sounds crazy.
But I had the hardest time creating a login page, which every app has. Every app has a login page. I did not realize how hard it was because obviously it needs to store somewhere, it needs to create a password for someone, it needs to be encrypted. They need to be able, what if they forget their password or they need to reset? And so something so simple that every single app has was actually shockingly complicated when I tried to do it myself. And it gave me a much better understanding of when I got to the point of having a developer, which I’ll get to.
what it actually meant to build some of these features. And I obviously watched a lot of YouTube videos. I Googled a lot of things. But I also actually hired someone on Fiverr for a few hours here and there to explain the things I couldn’t figure out to me so that I could understand what it meant behind the scenes. And that, think, really prepared me to work with a developer in a much better way because we were speaking the same language. It was almost like a crash course in coding. Not that I know how to code, not that I
think I’m at that level, but I could at least speak the same language as him. And so those six months while it like slowed down me launching an app, I think were invaluable in my journey of learning how to do this. And then at the end of those six months, I had this prototype that was like abysmal, but like it did things. I had people use it like just friends. It wasn’t like live in the app store. And it really helped me see, okay, yes, I’ve thought about this properly.
So then I did the design based off of that. I hired a friend of mine who’s like incredible and so she did it all on Figma for me. And so then I thought, what do I do now? So there was a part of me that was like, do I learn to code? Like, do I learn to code? I very quickly realized I am not patient enough to learn to code. I was gonna lose my mind. So I was like, no, not for me. I’m not experienced enough in this. I was like, I need someone who I can see face to face at least sometimes who can help guide me and who’s ideally one person.
because another thing is I didn’t want it to be that it’s like hopping around in different lines of code written by different people when it was so early on and I knew I needed help. So then I landed on, I actually need a singular developer. I didn’t want to co-founder and I was really lucky actually my fiance’s brother knows a developer and I met him and I came with my pack and my design and I explained everything and I said, how long and how much would it cost for you to build?
the first version of this. And so he quoted me, I’m happy to share 10,000, which was actually what I had benchmarked in my mind that I was willing to risk, if you will, at this early stage. And he said it would take like two to four months. I hired him in June of 2024. In October, November, it was in really good shape, but I was like, I’m not going to launch a product for home buying at that point in time because November, December is much quieter. January picks up again.
So I was like, let’s use the final two months to do any little tweaks. And so then in January of 2025, so this year, I launched to friends and family. So was really just people who knew me or people who knew my friends. And then I launched to people who don’t know me in March of this year. And then I’m iterating every month constantly based on feedback. And I pay my developer. I have a monthly number of hours set with him.
Chardét (26:13)
This is an amazing answer. I mean, it’s really intriguing because I also think there’s a lot of people listening who think about, oh, I’d like to have an app maybe one day as associated with my business, not necessarily the main offering. And you don’t realize what goes into that. How much just the fact that something you said that I love, and I think this applies even outside of learning about coding and apps is
Asking someone paying someone to show you explain things. How do they work so that you can then go and speak the language of the person you hire also Understand how you’re being priced because for example, I’ve seen in with podcasting Some people are paying outrageous amounts to have someone do the editing for them because they don’t understand the basics of what’s involved etc. And that’s even like
20-fold, 100-fold when you’re talking about something like an app or a website, etc. So the fact that you did that was so clever. Was that just your own idea I’m gonna learn or did someone suggest that to you?
Camilla de Cesare (27:20)
I’ve always been this way. always, so I would say my personality is like, I think I can do anything and then I realize that I can’t. And then every aspect of my life always, it’s just always been how I’ve worked. And there’s curves that show this. Like the most confident people are the most ignorant and that’s you start. And then as you start to like learn any topic, you actually become way less confident because you’re like, wow, look at all these things that I didn’t know. And then you start learning it and then the curve starts to go up and then the only people who ever get like close to that ignorance
confidence is experts. And this is a curve that’s very well studied and in psychology, I studied psychology in university. And I’m like, I see myself in that curve every time I try to do everything. I’m like, no, no, I can do it. can do it. yeah, then I realized very quickly, nope, nope, no. But instead of giving up, I’m like, OK, what does it take? I would actually recommend to any founder, you have to wear a million and one hats. So your options are either have a base understanding of everything or outsource. But if you’re going to outsource, still recommend having a base understanding of what you’re outsourcing.
Otherwise, it’s going to be very hard to communicate effectively.
Chardét (28:22)
You can outsource and you should delegate. That’s how you scale. It’s how you grow. It also is you don’t need to know everything so perfectly well to be able to do it, but having some basic understanding of it is really, really valuable to just be able to communicate. Like you said, be able to manage the budgeting around it, expectations of how long will it actually take me to get this done, et cetera. Now you’ve done all this work with it. It’s
finally available, anyone can use it. Where do you see it going in the future? What’s your vision for it?
Camilla de Cesare (28:56)
My end-to-end goal is really that Hunter is available all across different European countries. So if you’re either a foreign buyer or a local buyer, you can enter and be like, I want to buy property in Greece. And it helps walk you through everything in all of those different countries. And in each country, it helps support a local charity. So the 10 % of revenue always supports a local charity supporting homelessness. And then if it starts to work, I would actually love to create a Hunter Home Deposit Fund.
for every X amount of time we’re able to give away, even if it’s not huge amounts, but some contribution.
Chardét (29:31)
There
is something about when you build an additional mission into whatever you’re creating. So yes, it’s generating revenue for you, but it’s also creating impact as you go. It’s so much more fulfilling, rewarding. I’m sure too, when you bring on a bigger team, it makes them feel more invested with it and more linked to it. Users feel like, prefer to use this because it has the mission associated with it. Where can…
people find the app, where can they connect with you, and any news you want to share as well, please do.
Camilla de Cesare (30:03)
just started a TikTok account for Hunter. It’s called Hunter app. It’s spelled H N T R A P P. And you can download Hunter app on either Android or iPhone. It’s fully free to use, no ads, no premium features, all your data is safe. It’s not shared with any one I monetize through the recommended suppliers. So if someone books, for example, the mortgage broker, that’s how Hunter earns a referral. So also very important to me that people know like
It’s here to help you, it is not here to take advantage in any way, shape or form, and it’s suppliers that either my friends or I used. And then I, my personal Instagram account is ave.camilla. And you can always message me on any of these platforms if you have feedback, if you have questions, if you just want to chat, if you’re overwhelmed, it doesn’t matter what the topic. I genuinely am always there for whoever needs me. So please reach
Chardét (30:49)
Amazing, we’re gonna include notes to everything in the show notes. You’ll see links for anyone listening that thinks I want to try out this app. I just want to see what it’s like. I want to connect. You can do that there and
Thank you for sharing so much, being really transparent and for all of the passion and the energy you brought today. And thank you so much for listening. This conversation, I hope it sparked something in you. It got you thinking about your customer journey, the people you work with, maybe how you can continue to learn and feel a little bit more excited in the process. If you are someone who is looking to buy a home or you just want to understand a little bit more, especially if you’re in the UK.
make sure you check out Hunter app, HNTR, and share this too with someone else. If you know other founders, especially in tech, but really anyone that could benefit from learning more about how to make that journey more impactful. And also if anyone you know is looking for a home, send them this episode and I will see you on the next one. If you laughed, learned.
or felt a little less alone, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify and subscribe! Come back for more! We’re building a community of women to tear down the BS around business and grow in real, ways. Together!
